jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2007 8:19:29 PM
bugc:
I definitely agree with getting rid of the Boston-XX variants -- I just checked and there are ONLY 9 TOTAL gas prices posted today for ALL Boston-XX variants so it seems like GBers are NOT using them!! My guess is that this just makes things more confusing.
As far as the neighborhoods, that makes sense to me (the existing ones and adding East Boston and Charleston). What about Alston and Brighton (are they added, are they separate or just a single entry)?
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2007 7:40:24 AM
I see that the Boston list already includes
Dorchester
Jamaica Plain
Roslindale
West Roxbury
I propose keeping them on the list.
I'd add
East Boston
Charlestown
Replace all the Boston variants with just "Boston"
Comments?
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2007 7:28:54 AM
I also tend to agree that too much detail is confusing. There are some exceptions.
I have no question about the boundaries of Charlestown and East Boston and to some extent South Boston. The map shows that Allston/Brighton is clearly an isolated island.
I have a lot of trouble distinguishing between Roxbury and Dorchester, between Basck Bay and Fenway, etc.
I also have trouble referring to West Roxbury, Hyde Park and Roslindale as being "Boston."
These issues are resolved when icons are displayed on a map, but how do you describe the station? I presume the MSL will require the "post office" description. I'm sure that cross streets will not always work unless the locality within Boston is specified. There must be many duplicately named intersections in various parts of the city.
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2007 1:49:35 AM
So overall, we want one Boston listing.
NYC is a little different: It's easy to define Queens, Manhattan, Bronx, SI and Brooklyn. Like I said before..where does Dorchester start and Roxbury end? If you talk to 10 different people, you are most likely going to get 10 different answers.
Duplicate posting is a problem. Having one "Boston" might eliminate that.
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2007 8:33:40 PM
I'm not sure about this one -- though I tend to agree with driftwood, having the neighborhoods only confuses folks that are not 'locals' AND if the map locations are correct, who cares!!
What do the other metro sites do; does LA have 'neighborhoods' listed separately, how about NY with its boroughs?
[I did a quick check on NY -- they do seem to have the different boroughs like Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn -- but I'm not sure that those aren't separate cities vs. neighborhoods. My thought was for a in/out rule was; does it have a separate town government; if so, then it should be listed as a separate town, if not, no!
|
driftwood
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:8,902
Points:1,799,620
Joined:May 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2007 2:34:51 PM
Breaking Boston into neighborhoods worsens the problem of guessing where a service station lies.
People already put suburban stations in the wrong adjacent town.
We need the site not to care, as long as we give the correct street locations. (or map point).
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2007 2:34:33 PM
Here is a Boston Neighborhood map to help.....
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2007 2:05:50 PM
The city of Boton website defines the following as "neighborhoods"
Allston
Back Bay
Bay Village
Beacon Hill
Brighton
Charlestown
Chinatown / Leather District
Dorchester
Downtown
East Boston
Fenway Kenmore
Hyde Park
Jamaica Plain
Mattapan
Mid Dorchester
Mission Hill
North End
Roslindale
Roxbury
South Boston
South End
West End
West Roxbury
Which ones to list? How?
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2007 2:34:52 AM
Personally, I would like to see everything under one heading for Boston. It's easy to figure out what East Boston is..or even Charlestown. But to try and define Dorchester? Or Roxbury? Where does Allston/Brighton actually start?
Might as well keep it simple. As long as the proper street address is entered, you can always look at the map to see what gas prices are in your "neighborhood."
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2007 2:04:33 PM
bugc: thanks for doing this! It does make sense to me to have these four counties as the basis for the Boston site (the fourth being Suffolk which includes Boston, Revere, Chelsea and Winthrop).
As far as the Boston divisions; I would bet the 'Townies', 'Dots', 'Easties', etc. would consider themselves quite separate even though all part of Boston. They are, in some cases, further geographically apart from each other than some of the other towns that border Boston, e.g. Boston (proper) to Cambridge vs. Charleston to Dorchester. Unfortunately, once you open up the notion of the 'town sections' can of worms, then you'll have the problems with names (like that seciton of Billerica) that are only known to 'locals'. This doesn't help for folks who are visting a particular GB.com site for travel or business, i.e. who would NOT normally know these local names nor necessarily find them on a map (Google or paper!).
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2007 1:36:21 PM
I am working on a list to correct the listings for boston area cities and towns in Essex, Middlesex, and Norfolk counties. I will post this soon.
I don't know what to do with:
"Boston - Central"
"Boston - NE"
"Boston - North"
"Boston - NW"
"Boston - South"
"Boston - SW"
"Boston - West"
Any suggestions?
Do we list Charlestown, Dorchester, etc as individual areas?
I think it might help to list as:
Boston - Charlestown
Boston - Dorchester
Boston - Allston/Brighton
Boston - East Boston
etc.
Comments?
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 10, 2007 8:52:05 AM
FYI: I sent in a request, via the 'Contact Us' page, to JT and Co. asking them to enter North Reading onto the Boston metro site. Of coruse they are 'backed up' with a lot of stuff with the problems on the 'Map Gas Prices' page so it might take them a while to get to it!
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 8, 2007 7:59:46 AM
Another example -- North Reading, which is a SEPARATE town from Reading, is NOT listed on either the Boston or MA sites --- Go Figure??
I too, like bugc and others, would much prefer to have a boundary-less GB.com. When I post for stations on my commute they are sometimes across the two sites! Imagine how bad it is for folks who work in the NY/NJ metro area and commute from CT? This also causes problems for MSL entries (I know there are duplicate MSL entries because of this)! It also causes problems when you try to post prices from the new 'Map Gas Prices' page because the map allows you to easily cross 'boundaries' but the update web page is on a specific site, determined by the ZIP of that town -- so, if that town is not on the site you are currently logged into, it will require to to re-authenticate!! [I've said before, one solution to this is to have JT implement a 'single sign-on' mechanism. As it is, your single username/password already works on all GB sites!!]
BTW, I'm waiting to hear from the Boston/MA leaders on the challenge to add entries to the MSL !!!
|
abgershaw
Sophomore Author
Massachusetts
Posts:221
Points:542,285
Joined:Apr 2005
|
Message Posted: Mar 7, 2007 8:19:46 PM
Somehow Middleton got added as a Boston town. That's pretty cool, considering it's my hometown. I used to post Middleton to both the Boston and Massachusetts boards because I really wasn't sure to which it belonged. Now that Middleton is "officially" sanctioned a BostonGasPrices town, I only post it on that site.
The Census's standard for metro areas has many quirks of its own. Salem, Lynn, and Peabody are their own metro area, which is fine; but then the Boston metro area extends all the way to Hamilton, Gloucester, even Newburyport. Yet Salisbury is lumped in with the Merrimack Valley towns like Amesbury and Haverhill. Andover is lumped in with Boston, yet North Andover is lumped in with Amesbury and Haverhill again. Even Shirley is "metro Boston." So I don't really know what is going on here.
|
nds
Veteran Author
Boston
Posts:284
Points:252,550
Joined:May 2003
|
Message Posted: Mar 1, 2007 9:38:55 AM
I'm not sure what the formula is (or was), but I've written in via the "Contact Us" button, and had a town added. That's how Winchester got into the pull down list.
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Feb 19, 2007 5:10:53 PM
Strong work! Anything else we can do?
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Feb 19, 2007 8:17:50 AM
It would be good to straighten out this mess. I posted a question asking the admins whether it is worth the effort to do it but have not received a reply.
I'd like to see the area distinctions to go away, but we don't know if/when it might happen.
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Feb 10, 2007 9:04:33 AM
BostonC75 writes:
> You guys have been around a lot longer than I have.
I've been on GB for ~ 2.5 yrs but I have NO idea who these 'magical' local admins are who make the decisions about where a town belongs; maybe bugc knows. It has always seemed to me to be very arbitrary and not worth fighting about --- I've worked around it by posting the prices for the stations I pass on whatever site I'm on -- typically the Boston site!!
[I've even added MSL stations for towns NOT in the pull-down lists for the same reason. I'm doing this partially to PUSH the notion that we NEED a boundary-less GB!!] The only problem for me is that I 'lost' my points leader status because I initially did most of my price posting on the MA state site but now I've switched over to the Boston site since two of the towns I normally post are now on the Boston site! [I gave up 'caring' about points on this site a long time ago though ...]
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Feb 10, 2007 2:08:12 AM
That list is interesting too. Plymouth and Hamilton listed as metro Boston..but Lynn and Natick aren't..(Just an example)..if I'm reading the list
You guys have been around a lot longer than I have. Maybe it's just easier to add or delete the towns on a case by case basis?
I agree with putting in Allston,Charlestown Etc instead of the Boston NE and all of that.
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Feb 9, 2007 4:21:43 PM
I took a look at New England city and town areas (NECTAs)as suggested by jasilva. That list looks like a good place to start. It includes more towns than we really want, but it allows a consistent definition.
Are we interested in culling this list and making a proposal to the admins. This is the proper forum to discuss it, along with the Massachusetts counterpart.
The other issue is get rid of Boston-West, Boston-North, etc., and replace them with Boston-Charlestown, Boston-Allston/Brighton, etc. I'd propose keeping Boston in the key as an aid for people who are unfamiliar with the area.
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Feb 9, 2007 11:57:19 AM
Glad I'm not the only one....
Here's another one: Millis is listed in the Mass site, while Medfield (to the east) and Medway (to the west..borders 495) are both considered "Metro" Boston...
Medway is Metro Boston?
Maybe we should switch our opinions to the big board...
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Feb 9, 2007 7:24:29 AM
BostonC75 writes:
> Weymouth should be changed from Massachusetts to Boston ...
> What do YOU guys think?
I think the boundaries on the metro (Boston) site is arbitrary and useless! I have the same problem with Andover (further north) being on the Boston site while North Reading (not the same town as Reading) being on the MA site. I've been 'petitioning' for a boundary-less GB for two years now and recently JT made mention of the possibility of it now that he has the new 'Map Gas Prices' capability! [If you use that new map it has serious problems when trying to post along a map route because it jumps back and forth between the metro and state site depending upon where it thinks that town should be --- it's a pain.]
|
BostonC75
All-Star Author
Boston
Posts:740
Points:260,605
Joined:Feb 2007
|
Message Posted: Feb 9, 2007 2:20:23 AM
Here's another strange one: Weymouth is listed in the Massachusetts site, not in Boston. South Weymouth (which is the same town..primarily named back in the day due to the Naval Air Station) is listed in the Boston site.
Rockland and Abington are both in the metro Boston site.
Maybe it's just me, or the fact that I entered a bunch of gas stations in the Weymouth section on Rt. 18 (that probably should have gone in the South Weymouth site in Metro Boston) but I think Weymouth should be changed from Massachusetts to Boston. After all, Weymouth touches Quincy, Braintree, etc and is a lot closer to Boston that Rockland or Abington.
What do YOU guys think?
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Aug 12, 2006 7:37:03 AM
For the most part 495 does seem to be the boundary that was used, but there are a number of anomolies such as Acton, Lincoln and Concord being in a "Massachusetts island" surrounded by other "Boston" towns.
I see three choices:
1. Do nothing about it.
2. Agree to corrections here in this discussion and pass the revisions on to the administrators.
3. Use a "standard" definition such as suggested by jasilva and others.
|
Ssmith1070
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:8,854
Points:1,248,415
Joined:Aug 2005
|
Message Posted: Aug 11, 2006 6:02:32 PM
I'd just assume that we could have everything within 495 be within Boston's site, but clearly Haverhill or Cape Cod, both outside 495, should be in different sites. Worcester, too, as it is already. Ideally Natick and Framinham should then be in Boston's site based on that.
Towns like Dover shoud clearly be on the Boston site, as Needham is the next town over, right on 128, and I don't think it is...
[Edited by: Ssmith1070 at 8/11/2006 6:03:42 PM EST]
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Jul 31, 2006 11:52:19 AM
Thanks for the comments, MrPolisher.
Why do you think there needs to be more sites?
I'd like to see the whole thng map-driven and not worry about area boundaries. The Boston site has shortcuts for
"Find the lowest gas prices in these areas:
Beverly Boston Cambridge Lowell Lynn Malden Medford Newton Peabody Quincy Revere Somerville Waltham Woburn" even though Lowwell has beem moved out of the Boston area.
The Massachusetts site has shortcuts for Brockton and Fall River.
Your estimate of approximately 1200 service stations being inside 495 shows how pathetic the Boston MSL is with 360 stations listed.
|
MrPolisher
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:12,475
Points:2,242,055
Joined:May 2004
|
Message Posted: Jul 29, 2006 8:58:44 PM
Here’s my two cents worth and a bit of information, inside the 128 belt (approximately 11.5 mile radius from Boston) there are 600 service stations, give or take a few. This is what I think the Boston area site should encompass!
Inside the 495 belt (about 26.5 mile radius from Boston) there are approximately 1200 service stations. There needs to be more sites than just Boston, Worcester, and Springfield. Yes I know other areas can be posted on the Mass site, but it still means of a lot of stations aren’t going to be listed on any site. How about a Brockton or Fall River area site! Maybe Framingham area should be another site?
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Jul 27, 2006 11:54:52 AM
Fixing the list will have benefits but also cause disruptions for some people. Does anyone reding this care? Is anyone reading this?
|
jasilva
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,300
Points:678,905
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Jul 25, 2006 9:33:18 PM
Well, the US government has already DEFINED MSA - Metropolitan Statitical Areas: see US Census MSA Web Page
In particular they also identify New England metro areas [New England city and town areas (NECTAs)], see: NECTAs
Scroll down or search for Boston and you'll see the set of towns defined to be in the Boston Metro (or NECTA)!
However, in my opinion (which I've stated in the MSL discussion threads) is that there should NOT be any site boundries!! I much prefer having the ability to provide a 'home' zip code and radius and have that come up as my default area when I'm logged in. [I prefer the way that 'other gas site' does this!!]
BTW, Lowell is NOT in the Boston NECTA! and Braintree4Evah; yes, it is defined in a separate NECTA as you point out.
[Edited by: jasilva at 7/25/2006 9:36:03 PM EST]
|
Braintree4Evah
Rookie Author
Boston
Posts:28
Points:1,860
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: May 2, 2006 5:37:56 AM
Depends on one's personal definition of the "Boston area." I've found that many people who live within 5 miles of the State House can be, geographically, very provincial. Anyone seen the "New Yorker's view of the world" poster? The same arguably applies to downtown Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, and Brookline. When I worked in Kenmore Square, I had a co-worker who was horrified that I commuted "all the way" from Braintree (about 12 miles). I have a friend from Cambridge who refers to Natick as being in the "western part of the state."
Sorry, getting somewhat off-subject. IMHO, most areas within and along Route 495 should be classified as the Boston area. A notable exception would be the Merrimack Valley (Lowell-Lawrence-Haverhill), which I believe is its own census-defined area.
|
eeek
Champion Author
Cleveland
Posts:10,855
Points:2,191,695
Joined:Sep 2003
|
Message Posted: May 1, 2006 11:52:50 AM
I think every board has a topic like this.
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Apr 18, 2006 7:20:44 AM
Everything inside 495? Where do you place the boundary?
|
truckn
Rookie Author
Massachusetts
Posts:17
Points:61,765
Joined:Aug 2005
|
Message Posted: Apr 17, 2006 10:19:15 AM
I agree, Include the North and South Shores as well as anything inside 128. Seems to make sense.
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Apr 17, 2006 9:57:30 AM
Yes. How far should the north & south shores extend? There are some towns that extend to and beyond rt 495. Should they be included?
What towns are missing?
|
Bubarino
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:1,346
Points:237,350
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Apr 15, 2006 9:20:14 AM
The Boston area should include everthing inside of 128 & the north & south shores. Some of the towns in the area are not listed.
|
bugc
Champion Author
Boston
Posts:10,273
Points:2,101,530
Joined:Mar 2004
|
Message Posted: Apr 15, 2006 8:09:25 AM
I noticed that Lowell has been recently moved from the Boston List to Massachusetts.
This makes sense but there are still lots of inconsistencies. Hopefully the transition to the Master Price List will blur the distinction, but that remains to be seen.
There has been no discussion here. This is the proper place to reach a consensus on where boundaries should be placed. After consensus is reached, the administrators will adjust the lists. Let's give it a try.
|